school prayer & the 10 comandments

[gracerules2007]

I am a christian. So what are my thoughts on school prayer? Well I am against captive audience prayer.

That means prayer over the loud speaker. I don't believe in group prayer at sporting events in the school because there might be some atheists there.

No atheists should be forced to participate in religious activites by bowing heads or holding hands.

Basically I am against all forms of public prayer for the simple reason that Jesus Himself said in Mathew chapter 6 not to pray in public. Prayer is a private thing between you and God. I can pray without making it obvious to people around me that I'm doing so.

What are my thoughts on the 10 commandments being posted in schools or in the courts? I want to do everything possible to take the 10 commandments off of every court room wall in america and out of public schools.

Public school is NOT a place for any religious articles or activities of any kind. It's a place to prepare students for the workforce. It's a place to learn math, science, english, etc. Employers do not care about your prayer life!

How will school prayer prepare kids for the workforce? How will bible courses in school prepare students for the workforce? Yes I am against teaching the bible in public school whether as a required course or as an elective.

I support what the ACLU does for the most part. Teach your kids prayer and bible at home not in school or send them to private school. I want to take the crosses off of all the tombstones in the cemetery. I want all religious articles taken out of public life. Out of the law, out of government, out of the white house.

The day that christians start pushing for the cross to be shown on the american flag is the day that I will stop pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't believe that there should be daily bible studies in the white house. I'll take an oath in court but it won't be under God and I won't put my hand on the bible.

I believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord & Savior of the world but it's a personal relationship. It should not be displayed in public life. I also want to take the "in God we trust" off of our dollar bills.

America was founded on freedom of religion as well as freedom from it. It was not a christian country. Therefore the phrase "under God" was not in the original pledge of allegiance. Neither was "in God we trust" on our money.

There is nothing more dangerous than joining church & state together. Our government is corrupt because of the poisonous influence of religion. Religion is responsible for our world's problems. When will it stop? Well I don't know when because God has blinded the eyes of those who got sucked into evangelical christianity.

By the way most of the folks who work in the ACLU are christians too. Don't ask me to pray with you when we go to lunch together. I don't believe in bowing my head in public. I don't even bow my head in church while everyone else does.

[Insight411]

To not pray in public yet publicly express your opinions about it and your relationship with God.......

I always thought Matthew chapter 6 dealt with the motive behind the acts, more so than the location. Don't do things to be seen of men or to receive the praise of men. Nor do them to get attention.....maybe we should apply that to all areas of our lives.

[THX1138]

Great thread Grace, I agree 1000%!

I have friends who I guess you would say are "fundamentalists"... they believe there should be no separation between church and state.

I say "yeah... just like Iran."

And, school prayer is almost at the top of their political agenda.

I say, "school prayer is great, when do the Hindu kids get their chance?"

Yeah, there is no way you can have a religious fundamentalist state and call yourselves free.

Freedom of religion and freedom from religion, there has to be both.

I always liked the concept of "praying in the closet, not weeping in the temple for all to see like the pharisees". So true.

Someone who will pray or do something when no one else is around has true faith.

Thx :)

[tiggerinlondon]

Originally Posted by Insight411

To not pray in public yet publicly express your opinions about it and your relationship with God.......

I always thought Matthew chapter 6 dealt with the motive behind the acts, more so than the location. Don't do things to be seen of men or to receive the praise of men. Nor do them to get attention.....maybe we should apply that to all areas of our lives.

"If you wish others to know about your good deeds,
they are not truly good deeds.
If you fear others will find out about your bad deeds,
those are truly bad deeds." Master Hsuan Hua

IMHO in the end, what you percieve is wrong/bad and right/good, is what dictates how you live your life and thus your moral judgement...I say whatever floats your boat, as long as it doesn't hurt others... *shrug* but that's just my view.

[obx08]

I could write a book on this and I could probably start a major debate with you gracerules but I will try to be short and to the point.

We were commanded by God to go out into all the nations and spread the Word of God. It sure seems like you want to keep it to yourself.

For wanting to stand for religion out of politics that sure seemed to be a pretty politically charged post

The reason why our nation is in shambles is not because of Christianity getting involved...it is because we have strayed for Christianity...

We are to be lights unto the World...unashamed and unafraid to share our faith with the world...thats Biblical...it sure seems like you want to hide yours and keep it to yourself.

Insight hit the correct meaning of Matthew Chapter 6...you are portraying exactly what Chapter 6 is telling us not to do.

A personal relationship with Jesus means the same as a personal relationship you may have with a husaband or wife...and if you remember the church/christians and Jesus are the bride and groom in the bible...and in the same way you will see a husband/wife unashamedly publically show that they have a personal relationship with each other we are to unashamedly be proud of our personal relationship with jesus christ.

By personal He does not mean 100% private...he means an open honest and real relationship...like i said with a husband/wife....not like a coworker or someone you occasionally see around town.

My biggest issue is why are you ashamed and afraid to be associated with Christ and why do you want Christ out of everything. A true Christian realizes that Christ is the answer and would want Christ to run their life because they know they cannot run it themselves...and they would want to share this with everyone they meet because if you have this saving grace...why would you not want to share it with everyone else!!

[gracerules2007]

It's gotten to the point where daily bible devotions and prayer are required in the military. If you elect to serve in your country's armed forces at some point you may be required to participate in religious activities such as prayer or bible reading.

It happens in boot camp. Bowing your head in prayer is one of the practices in boot camp. Religious exercises should have no place in our military. If I join the military I'm there to serve my country- not to learn how to pray. You don't need prayer to conduct your military assignments with honor.

No I do not want to take Christ out of anything. First of all it is impossible to take Christ out of anything because He is ALL in ALL. What I do want to take out of our government is religion completely whether it's christian or buddist or muslims or whatever.

And the analogy of the husband/wife relationship is a poor analogy. It's a poor analogy to compare a human relationship to a relationship with God because God's ways are higher than our ways. Besides I would hope you don't display affection to your wife in public.

I don't believe in that. I would hope husbands and wives don't have sex in public. A relationship with God is intimate and personal. A relationship with husband and wife should be private as well. No public display of affection whatsoever! I do not want my wife kissing me in public!

Re-read mathew chapter 6. Jesus made it clear that when you pray go to your inner room and pray to your Father in secret. Public prayer is wrong! If other people see you pray then you have all the reward you get. The praise of men.

Prayer is a language of the spirit. True worship of God is in spirit. So nobody can stop you from praying by my definition of prayer. I don't need to open my mouth or bow my head when I'm praying. God's not listening to what comes out of my mouth anyway but what my spirit is communicating to His Spirit.

As far as preaching the gospel is concerned there is a saying to preach the gospel and when necessary use words. Preaching the gospel I believe is what one does with their actions and not so much their words.

A christian can be silent about his faith and still display love for his enemies and neighbors through his actions such as helping the needy, caring for widows in the times of distress. That is preaching the gospel.

The reason I want the 10 commandments removed from government property and the supreme court is because God's law is written on our hearts not on stone. This is the new covenant.

We're not under the law but under grace. We have God's Word in our hearts. The Word of God is Jesus. So it doesn't matter if the government takes our bibles away. We have God's Word in our hearts.

[THX1138]

Oh, obx08, I disagree completely...

Personally, I think that making any religion "state sponsored" would ruin both the country and the religion.

"Hey Jesus, don't you worry, we made Christianity mandatory."

So... where is the faith?

And the question of which religion is still there. Christianity? Okay, how about a Catholic state, does it have to be protestant? Who's gonna make those decisions?

My faith is enough that I don't have to have it crammed down my throat, and let's face it, the state ruins everything they touch practically. Do you want the bad works of a state attributed to God?

I would feel ashamed to come up to God and tell Him we did something like this, as though He needed the state... To me it would be offensive.

I think making any religion an "official" religion of a state would turn the state into a totalitarian monster, not unlike North Korea, Nazi Germany or Iran.

I suppose the President and the congress would have to be vetted and approved by the church. What about dissenters? Should they be deported or sent to "re-education" camps?

It would be no different and just as unfair if they told you Christianity was banned.

I have to wonder also how the churches themselves would like the idea, what with the state handing them "approved" doctrine...

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

Thx :)

[THX1138]

Originally Posted by gracerules2007

It's gotten to the point where daily bible devotions and prayer are required in the military. If you elect to serve in your country's armed forces at some point you may be required to participate in religious activities such as prayer or bible reading.

It happens in boot camp. Bowing your head in prayer is one of the practices in boot camp. Religious exercises should have no place in our military. If I join the military I'm there to serve my country- not to learn how to pray. You don't need prayer to conduct your military assignments with honor.

I didn't know that about the military nowadays Grace, huh.

When I was in the Air Force in the early 80s there was nothing like that.

Everyone was allowed to have the book of their faith, no matter what it was, they would never think of messing with that.

You had church on Sundays in boot camp, but they had services for all the major faiths. But praying as a group function in your daily training would have been unheard of.

The Air Force was almost an international organization too, we had people from all over the world.

(These freedoms were the things we were fighting for... lol)

Gee, that's such a shame.

Thx :)

[Insight411]

We have come to a time on this planet that we search for so many reasons not to pray, not to attend church, not to believe in Christ. And that is exactly where Satan wants us. He is very wise and we have lost focus.

We get disappointed in relationships and we constantly run back in....because we want that love, that attention. We lose jobs and money, yet we quickly look for replacements because we need that income to get what we want or need. But let something with Christianity not go our way. We are done! We have had our can full and are not going to deal with such people. We give up on Christianity and start judging, yet we continue to participate in almost anything provided by a place we are not to conform to.

We can get burned by the world and will forever continue to run back into it....like a moth. But if some christian does something we don't like, we run from Christ. We want to magnify all the flaws of Christians....I still haven't found the logic there.

Maybe we should realize we follow God...not man. That might feel a bit better. And perhaps we should start pointing out flaws in others after we perfect ourselves. Stop looking at what the world is doing and frowning because we don't like it. This place is not home....don't get too comfortable or complain too much.

If our relationship with God is so easily tossed to and fro by outside influences, that relationship is not very strong and just maybe we are looking for a reason to not be faithful. That also applies to our worldly relationships as well.

Stop focusing on men, they are no greater than you and will always let you down. Focus on someone higher. Set aside the weights that so easily distract us and have a relationship with God. This is about pleasing him....not self!

[gracerules2007]

Nobody that I know of is telling students that they are not allowed to pray. What is NOT allowed is captive audience prayer. It's illegal to institute group prayer. It's a violation of freedom of religion.

If you want to pray all day by yourself nobody is stopping you. You just don't have the right to force others to go through the motions of religious rituals such as bowing their heads and/or reciting a prayer.

Which brings me to say that I am against the moment of silence in public schools also. Why should everyone be forced to participate in a moment of silence? Any individual can have a moment of silence to reflect or to pray or meditate anytime they want to. Nobody's stopping you. Just don't ask others to join in something they don't believe in.