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Thread: Nice Guy Syndrome

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    Default Nice Guy Syndrome

    How many times have we heard people complain,
    "Are tangerines really just oranges that didn't want it enough?" - Random Greeting Card

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    EXCELLENT post Kelley!


    -SuperDave71
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle

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    Way to go there Kelley

    I had something similar in the back of my head like.... forever ... and reading your thread just gave me this "Get to work and start writing you lazy ass !" impulse, so to avoid an double post and if you don't mind , i'll just add my take on the subject here, as a follow-up/contradiction/addendum (pretty much of all 3 )....buckle up people, here comes the fuzz

    "I lost a toy cowboy when i was 6....and I'm Still Angry"

    Men don't realize how much of the REAL ( as oposed to the Image they Like to See themselvs as ) males they are today has a cause they never thought about....it's an agravating procent of 85-90 of the males today that are "Nice Guys"...and it all comes from "The Mother's Influence" ....don't take this the wrong way, i belive all mothers try and do their best to raise and properly educate their young son - their good intention is not questionable....but that good intention sometimes proves fatal for the boy when he becomes a man, i ain't talking about "raised by a single mother" scenarios only....this is general and here's why :

    Humans are born with two imprinted values that govern their lives : SURVIVAL (S) and REPRODUCTION (R) ....as normal, women have an increased REPRODUCTION value (good looks, sex appeal , Attraction Factor) while men have the increased SURVIVAL one (stronger, more fitted for hard work etc) ....add hormones to this and you will get that in the past puberty to mid 20's (25-28) period, women will normally take advantage of their REPRODUCTION instinct and by this, they tend to choose a man with low S value but high R one ( "So? he's a unnemployed douchbag....but he looks damn good and he treats me like a woman" ....."he has no plans/desires for the future, but he's soooo good in bed" ...and even worse add those two above to "all other women want him")....past the mid 20's or after a child appears in their lives (the maternal instinct kicks in and starts to cool down the hormone drive), women begin to shift polarities on those two values..the R is settled as she is getting older and the value decreases in time so she puts more accent on developing the S one...and that affects her choosing in men also ....the higher the S value, the better, no matter that his R value is way below (no sex appeal, boring as hell, butt ugly and fat, or just plainly washed....BUT he has a good salary, he is a good provider/care-giver and he won't cheat or leave)

    As a mother she is still a woman and because of that, when the boy reaches teenager period (or even prior "meeting girls"/"behaving toward girls interactions") she will have a STATUS : married/looking for a husband/serious commitement, with a child she has to provide for and has a good provider ally (if married)/is looking for one (if not)...you have to draw a line here and realize that the values she sees in her man are more on the material/survival side rather than on the attraction one....no matter her good intentions she will try to draw her son to the qualities she likes in a man , IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME and get him close to the image of a man she would like NOW ("treat girls nicely" , "be punctual", "keep your promises" ,"cheating is not good" , "aim for long term relationships" "no vulgarities, wait till marriage"- all those ar HER requirements and spoken by a mom, they have the power of an unwritten law - it doesn't help that most dads simply preffer not to risk an possible argue with their wives if they will start to encourage things like : "i was more drunk than sober at your age" , " women ? i was changing them like socks when i was like you" etc) and not the type of boy/man she would have liked/felt attracted to in her teenage years (and in this way, they totally neglect the Attraction Factor)

    Simply put, the mother (and by her husband's inaction) trains her boy to be a GOOD FAMILY MAN with strong S value but AN LOVER with a zero R one....it's a good training for the later years, but will severely fault the boy turning into a man in the teenage period....and teenage period comes first, not the other way around. Some get lucky and meet the type of girl with a close mentality....but almost 90% go through a teeanger period marked by some hurtfull break-ups, deceptions, contradictions and misunderstandings about why women won't engage them ("i got 15 diplomas and can speak 20 foreign languages....and she's kissing with a guy i just saw puking green stuff 2 mins ago in the bathroom" ..."I have an executive position and a cool classy car...and she's exiting the club to go home with some ogre brute in a taxi that i bet she's paying cause he just drank all his money")

    Worst is that most men after countless negative experiences don't even realize that they are the DAMAGING FACTOR...by definition, a fool is a man who does the same mistakes over and over again expecting different results each time but men , instead of re-inventing themselvs and thinking outside of the box, go EXACTLY THE OTHER WAY AROUND : they amplify every mistake they did...if they were nice, now they've rotten teeth sweet, if they were pushers, now they'll be Godzilla like ones ("maybe i should give her more attention" , "maybe i should see her way more often" , "maybe i should let her know how i feel way sooner so she'll rest assured")

    If from the start the men were faulted in the "How to spark attraction" departement by the family training, from now one they start faulting themselvs by pushing toward the S value and neglecting the R one.....it's good one the long run, as that incresed S value will bring them some "used goods" woman , some that totally depleated her R value and is looking to increase her S one by letting somebody else do all the work

    Those are the general range of Nice Guys

    The short Alphabet : A, B , Z and in between

    The problem with the Nice guys is that they are in a constant evolution and there are many types of them ....but at the core, they are still Beta males or even worse Zeta ones.

    The Zetas are the introvertial type, severe depression/suicidal/anti-social tendecies , they are so down the supremacy ladder that not even other Zetas won't befriend them. Most are lost engaged in some obssesive activities (playing internet games, porn addicts , myspace freeks and stalkers etc - searching for a alternate place where they get a "tabula rasa" -clean plate/fresh start - but even if they had the chance for one , their lack of character and the deep sucumbement in their lifestyle commodity will prompt them to DO NOTHING) or have degrading jobs they don't like but like to talk how much they don't like them. Women for them is something alien and the last time they were close to some female genitals was at their birth.

    Betas.....now those are the Nice Guys we all know....Kelley already wrote their general characteristics and behavioural patterns there, but there's a catch .....the ones she is talking about are the "Deceiving Betas", the ones that have a purpuse behind their actions and already planned the whole interaction .There are also the "Clean Betas" (or the "Believers") , those that genuinely belive in all that is good and good intentions , quote god and other famous love poets, they have absolutely no clue what social dynamcs are and most of the times are virgins....rest assured, they are still boring as hell on the long run, and the naivity behind their actions will make you smack them in the face when he'll call you 100 times a day and still be sad because he sees nothing wrong in it.

    "Deceiving Betas"....he he he ....the problem with those is that all their life they lived in the shadow of some Alpha they hated their guts....but the mind plays tricks on them and after countless rejections they start blaming everyone else but them for the outcome of their social dynamics...even worse, they get into the "victim becoming the agressor" routine where they turn themselvs into a abominable personality hybrid between the Alpha he hated and the Beta Nice Guy he is deep inside. Objectivly, them copying Alpha traits won't be a negative thing, but they lack the self confidence to go all the way, and they only build a mask with the values they liked converted to selfish ones only...at the first glance you might actually say he's a cool guy to hang around with (a bit of attraction) but once the inner Beta Nice Guy spots your interest, you're in for the whole package Kelley presented above and the whole deceitfull manouver shows it's fangs. If there's one thing they DIDN'T learn form the Alphas they tried to copy....it's when to quit.

    "Cowardly Destructive Betas" - now those are separated by the ones above by the a sudden realisation incident and what happens when that event triggers . The "Maybe she'll eventually see what a nice lover i can be - that's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN" Event. They do show signs of the Exterior Behavior even before that incident ....if alike the other Betas, they put the woman they desire on a high pedestal ("He's not good enough for you" -only i am ) this type of Beta graduately reinforces his (make belief)qualities by totally negating the ones of the people around the women they desire, especially the men she gives or recives attention from. He usually does that by placing himself in an apparently friendly anthithesis and by usage of absolute terms ("He is such a imature jerk....I would never treat any woman like that"). The longer the period till the Realization Event, the more destructive/insane his remarks and counter-arguments will become. And when that event happens ....uhuuu...you're in for the "Cowardly" aspect of this Beta....he showed signs of it before as all his talking sh*t would be behind close doors in private and if caught and faced with his target he would deny and be like a puppy waveing his tail ....but after he realizes that the woman he wants, will never see him as a potential lover, he starts shouting his infatuation and inner complexes...he demands unrightfull explanations, he points out all the things he did for the woman in the smallest detail and asks for retribution, he even demands his birthday gifts back ....and worse , he will begin to publicly degrade the image of his former target by exposing all the intimate details of her private life, information he carefully gathered from her by abusing her trust. From his viewpoint he is rightously entitled to this behavior and will adopt the "you're with me or against me" mentality with his listeners...sad thing is, people love the dirty aspects of life, and eager to listen crap about somedoby followers gather in numbers. The ironic fact here is that at the core, the Beta Nice Guy will start surfacing .....while on one hand he'll degrade his target, on the other hand , simultanously he'll ask for forgivness, prompt that undying love for her made him act like that, beg, plead, cry, stalk ..the full menu, in front of her only. He ends up behaving like an surogate dumped boyfriend because living in his fantesy world for so long made him self-intitle that way.

    On thing both Beta Nice Guys types mentioned above have in common is that they'll ALWAYS end up in the point that Kelley mentioned : placing themselvs in the VICTIM spot - this goes back to the childhood training again where the motherly female presence , out of the maternal instinct would show love and compassion toward their son's problem and suffering.....they do this because they were Pavlov trained to get responses....they don't even realize that the other woman has no maternal implication towards them....just another disappointement on the list. They also ironically both place themselfs voluntarely in the "girlfriend" position at one time and never got out of there, asking and inquiring all posible details about the guy the woman they want hangs with, how good he is in bed, how does he behave, what does he think ..Life has a sick sense of humour sometimes, as they believe that this way the woman will realise how much they "care"

    By the way...the Alphas i was talking about earlier, aren't the Material Alphas everyone confuses them for (the big muscle guy that everyone fears and obeys....those are not Alphas....they are just trolls) but the Character Driven Real Alphas, the ones that lead by self-exemple, inspire others to self improvement by their presence and are capable of showing and understanding a full range of human emotions....the Good Guys as Kelley called them

    Cheers, Mike
    "What you won't let die, won't let you live "

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    Indulge the literature geek in me here a minute, Mike.

    "Clean Betas," as you call them - I call them "Don Quixotes." According to Cervantes, there are reasons why chivalry is dead...

    And there are reasons why Chaucer often feminized his chivalric heroes as well...but I'm going to stop geeking out NOW while I'm still ahead! (but for just a couple examples, see "The Book of the Duchess" and "The Miller's Tale." I know you ALL will be RUNNING to the bookstore to get your copies. )

    - Kelley the Nerd
    "Are tangerines really just oranges that didn't want it enough?" - Random Greeting Card

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    Kelley,.... you nerd!

    Great post hon
    -Peace
    Dan

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    nice post..i love it, reminds me of a friend who's exactly all the description in this post fits

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