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Thread: Nails in the Coffin

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    Default Nails in the Coffin (Regulary Updated)

    What i'm writing here is for men only ...i put a lot of importance in the difference between MEN and WOMEN way of thinking, factors that sum up in taking a decision and subjective involvement in a relationship .

    Golden Rule : "MEN DEAL IN LOGIC <-> WOMEN DEAL IN EMOTIONS"

    Remember this one friends , as it will spare you a lot of pain and also it will bring you a lot of joy if you apply it right...and as i say this , in Break-ups, this golden rule is the root of all nails you put in your coffin

    So, she dumps you , it can be a straight break-up ("i just don't have feelings for you anymore" - about 2 in 10), or it can be a dirty break-up ("i need time/some space for myself" , "i have mixed feelings" - about 8 in 10)...and here a men begins his downward spiral into pain ....you try to apply logic to her decision/behaviour..."what have i done wrong?" , "what would it take to repair this ? "

    A . "What have i done wrong? "
    -we are talking about general situations , excluding : you were caught cheating , lying, violence on your part and any other deviant factors here...you gave her love , respect, apreciation, and when it was all milk and honey she started acting weird, you got the cold looks,words and behavoir, and then the inevitable straight or dirty break-up occured...
    -usually this happens when she feels no more atraction for you , yes she loves you , but David D. said it spot on "Attraction is not a choice" , and i completed it with "Love is" ...so "Attraction is not a choice, love is" - remember this , because this is the way female brain is wired ...the atraction part comes from the EMOTION , and is the answer to the "why she dumped me for some drunk , doped, low-lifer who ain't better than me? "...the "Love" part there is the choice the woman makes when she settles down ....she CHOOSES to love you , but if some other doode starts a storm of emotions in her and pushes her atraction buttons , she will go with the other guy and you will get the familiar "I love you soo much (read : i'm not attracted to you anymore) , i belive we will be happy in the future (read : if the other guy turns to be lame) , but i need some time/space for myself, to figure out my feelings" (read : get out of the way and wait paciently while i have my fun , or give it a try with the other guy , but be there as my safety net in case it doesn't work well FOR ME )
    -back on tracks , the first thing you did wrong , was to float away from the person you were in the beginning of the relationship...yes you did this by showing love, by beeing open, by proving her over and over again that she has total control over you - in time, you became another person than the one she felt atracted in the first place, a person she loves , but leaves her cold
    -the second big mistake was to give too much credit to her words...Golden Rule : "ALWAYS JUDGE A WOMAN BY HER ACTIONS, NOT BY HER WORDS "
    -and the queen of all mistakes , the one you will encounter again later, - you tried, and applied LOGIC to her actions -i told her i love her -she won't go ; -i gave her everything she said it will make her happy - she'll stay with me forever , and so on

    B. "What Would it take to repair this ? "
    -here is where the LOGIC becomes the root ....in the first stage , you will try to rationalize everything she said , but your rant will be faulted from the start as you use logic to interpret her actions that are driven by emotions:
    -flowers always made her happy ? logic says bring her flowers as it will make her happy again - wrong
    -to sum things up , your logic dictates that you take all her unfulfilled wishes she had during your relationship and over-react fulfilling them ...it ain't going to work , and you guess, it will further float you away from the person she felt initally atracted

    The best way is to go into NC ....however, the pain is great, the itch to call ,send sms/emails is even greater ...so i always said that if you're going down , you better go with a bang ! ...and if you are prepared to enter NC , you could throw a final smoke screen before dissapearing ...something like " I love you but i'm not yours anymore" (works if you never told her "i love you" and she always complained about it) - guaranteed she will call in a few moments , but it's a fake call , whatever she says won't change a thing for you at this moment , and that's why you SHOULD NOT ANSWER THAT CALL, or reply to any sms or email...you just place the ball in her court , the contradiction will haunt her (if he loves me , why he ain't calling, begging , whatever), and you just got a good start in your NC

    Friends , this has been just a introduction to this thread, a few general issues i thought i must clear before the posts that will follow

    PS : i just felt the urge to edit this as i observed a lot of fine fellows still belive this myth

    THE "TIME-SPACE" EXCUSE

    This smoke screen that every woman used at least one time on some guy , must not be believed , friends ...i've seen it many times before , and i've had many confirmations from women who used it that there was ALWAYS a third party involved. Don't take this in the wrong ways ...it doesn't mean that she is already involved with somebody else (it happens in some cases , like Dave pointed out in his circus acrobat comparison), it just means that her atraction level for somebody else is way higher than the atraction level she has for you . And why the split , if she doesn't have anything concrete with somebody else ? you ask ...simple
    - you in the picture with her , won't signal out "availability" to the third party , some women used this to force the other guy to end his relationship if he had any , or is just plain simple strategy :she considers that beeing single and independent increases her chances
    -you in the picture with her means a lot of trouble in her giving the desired importance to the other guy...for her it just ain't worth the trouble keeping you around , lying to you , inventing excuses ...you just became an obstacle in her path
    -she just wants to present another type of her to the other guy , and she realizes that you will see the difference

    Trust me on this one , and this will be a big "AHA" moment for some of you ....did you noticed how they suddenly don't want to have sex with you , get head-aches, are tired , are not involved anymore in bed , just prior to the break-up ? Yes, the drop in the Attraction level is the root for this one ...i've tested this and observed it for a long time ....this is the messanger of a break up ,...yes, the relationship could still linger for a few months , but when someone else raises that Atraction level , bet every penny on the "Time-space" excuse

    Want to hear something even weirder ? most of the women who use "time-space" excuse don't even care to think about it ....it's a hard-wired self-defense mechanism ....i've talked to women who realized that i was right and there was a third target (that she got, or she didn't afterwards), as we were talkin ...."You know Mike, if i think about it you are right, i had such a crush for X at the time "

    So my advice friends ...if you get a "time-space" excuse , enter NC with a bang MAKING CLEAR she got the ideea that you won't be there waiting

    Excuses Addendum

    We all love'em ,we all get'em , sometimes they are true , mostly they are just traps ...reading someone's post earlier remembered me of this little dirty trick women use to brush you away ...what i call a "MORAL EXCUSE " -this applies to all kind of relationships , be it a long term or a short term one, ..when you spot this one out , it means TROUBLE :
    So you want to see this girl you are dating , (or you've been together for X period of time, and she's been acting weird)...you launch an invitation and you get the Moral Excuse Routine ...this is a "no win for you pal" situation - she says she can't see/meet you , because : and here is the "bait" -family, friend in mortal danger or suffering, spending time with sick children or senile old men , church and faith sudden rediscovery - if you can read between the lines , you spot the trap there ...even a tiny attempt to attack one of those mentioned above ( " Hey , can't you do this some other time ? " ---and you can hear the thunders and the sky opening up) will result in a Heaven's Rage and Fury on your head , giving her the oportunity to end the discussion feeling "dissapointed by your lack of understanding/ care for family values/ care for a friend in need /inability to put other's wealthcare (read "her's") above your own " ...yes , "You have no heart " / "You are so selfish" (look who's talking) / "I thought i knew you better" -follow and bye bye date....REMEMBER : if she doesn't follow her excuse with a concrete counter-offer to see you , you are getting the "Moral Excuse" Routine... pushing further and asking for explanations after you get one of those , is pointless and you're swiming in quick-sand ....it's even funnier how pursuing a "Moral Excuse" Routine ends you in ...try to guess this one ;) ...yes ...the "Time-Zone" excuse

    So , friends, if you get this one , keep the power to yourself , don't bow down trying to apply logic ...you are chasing ghosts...usa a one-liner when you spot the lack of counter-offer on her side (i mean a real counter-offer , "but i'm done at 8.00 so i'll see you at 9 " , "tommorow morning at 10 " ....not "some other time " /"soon" ), humour works great here again, and let her boil for a while. NEVER EVER let her slide on an BS excuse , hoping it's a one-time thing , if she get's away with one , it will become a habit

    I'll try to include my answer to our female visitor (and precious member), here , as a brief (i'll expand it later) advice :
    You are a woman and women love applying all the shades of grey and white in a relationship, as they do in a break-up (love you , but goodbye), and i don't blame them . you can't express emotions in 2 notions. When it comes to breaking up , i don't belive you'll advice someone to stay in grey areas , it's all black or white there

    "SHIFTING POLARITIES"

    There is a common saying , it probably comes from the arts, but it speaks the truth so loud , that everyone should take it in consideration ..."Men are the powerfull sex, women are the beautiful sex" ...the dreaded "You aren't the man i felt in love with anymore" comes into play here...yes men are emotional beings as well , and the ol' saying "Big boys don't cry" is for the fantasy world ,,,i've seen powerful men burst in tears , and i don't mean "love-tears" only , one example that comes in mind is the sadness of a fallen brother in arms among soldiers (been there)...speaking social dinamycs only (relationships) , one mistake i've seen many times is what i call "shifting polarities" - this happens when the man slowly turns into a woman , acts and argues like a woman in the couple ...hey , this happens most of the times without you even realizing it , as you belive you turning a softer side will tighten the relationship ...how many relationships where the guy says "i love you" in the first 2-3 months , had a future ? i'll say ONE in TEN ...the truth is, women love challange , love surprise and love to discover something new about the man she loves, everyday (hey , it goes for guys too, but guys tend to stay longer because of sex) ...take that from the woman you love , and expect troubles...also women love power , and i don't mean that "money/fame/shiny cars and jewelry" type of glass power (i pity women who are atracted to this , and i also pity guys who offer and belive that is power ), i mean POWER OF CHARACTER ...call it "backbone" call it "balls of steel" , anyway you want to call it it means "being in total control of yourself , sticking to your principles, and never backing down from anything that's rightously yours" (yes , that is why counting your losses , and entering NC , works too)...Shifting Polarities appears when you forget and drift away from the man that you are , when you alter your lifelong principles just because she is in your life , when you slowly dissapear as a singular subject , and start thinking too much at the two of you .(hey , i don't mean changing bad habits , DO THAT IF YOU LOVE THE WOMAN , i mean turning into a clone , copying her ideas and and ideals , loosing track of your own road in life)...women want someone they can look up to, not down at ...you are not only the LOVER , you must be part-time father figure, part time brother-figure, and part time best friend too

    Returning to the "big boys don't cry" saying , i strongly advise to never cry in front of a woman , and never ever cry in front of her during a break-up ...IT WILL ONLY MAKE THINGS WORSE ...maybe she has a good heart , but all you'll get is pity love , most of the women i asked admited that her lover crying in front of her was the last drop ...Yes we all know they say "i want a man that's gentle and sensitive " , but do not over-react it as it will bring you down , and it's one of those things that stick for a long time...it's sticks in her mind as you've proven to be weak , and the dissapointment of zero efect will stick in your mind also ...keep the power to yourself

    The "ALWAYS" , "FOREVER" and "NEVER" mistakes

    Using these terms can lead to disaster even when all things are pink in a relationship , but i'll expand the subject to abusive use of these terms during a break-up period only...yes friends, there is a common trick your mind plays when you realize you're about to loose something , and that is puting the contrast between "how fast you feel you are loosing something" and "how long you desire that thing to last", into words ...the saddest part is you do this without even realizing it , it is a simple mind defense-mechanism , and in 9 out of 10 cases it backfires...badly

    This sound familiar ? :
    "I will always/forever love you "
    "i will never forget you"
    " you will always be in my heart/mind"
    "I have never felt anything like this before"
    "i never belived something like this could happen (variations galore here )"

    Funny, huh ? and by funny i mean some heard those lines coming FROM THE OTHER SIDE of the barricade too, followed by that bone-crunching sound of "goodbye" ...using these terms in a break-up only deepens your grave, my friends...you are voluntarely placing yourself in the "victim" position , and aldough you might consider it to be a bold move , a great manouver on your part , as showing these kind of endless devotion and dedication , would get her on the right track ....you will fail ..."the hungry don't get fed" ...stick to leaving the break-up with your dignity and pride intact , not with that " and i gave her everything on the platter" sour taste in your mouth

    The "ALLIES GATHERING" Manouver

    This one mistake comes into play usually in long term relationship , and using it in a short term one , backfires so hard you'll think a train hit you ....
    The scenario is the typical one , one moment you're happy, the "i love you / the sky is blue" thing, and the next , BANG !, you get the "we need to talk" boot up your throat....i must admit , that the AG Manouver usually comes as a last resort, desperate one last shot, yes, after all the mistakes mentioned above , or ranking closest to the last...You see no way out of the situation that's eating your nights , so you turn into her closest friends or family to try to get them on your side ...DO NOT DO THIS !!! ...yes, you might get a little simpathy out of them , they might pity you , they might put the justice on your side , offer to talk to the other party involved, for you , BUT IT WON"T MAKE A DIFFERENCE ! ...it does not signal strength or power of character , it is a dirty manouver and you're (ex) partener won't apreciate at all the fact that you've gone public with the problem , taking it to somebody outside the two of you ....Going for the family members is an even bigger "NO NO" , no matter the "big wedding , lots of children , white fence or dalmatians running around the yard" plans the two of you had in the good days
    Yes, in a minor percentage, it might work , if the partener is a easy to influent type of person , but on the long run , fast forward a couple of weeks/months and you'll find yourself in the exact spot , realizing that the time spent was a big lie, or some mercy/pity love, and not the happy-time you thought you had

    The "LIVING IN THE PAST" mistake

    The scenario is the same as the one above ....so you try playbacking all the happy times the two of you had together, for her ....REMEMBER THIS : MEMORY IS NOT AN RECORDING OF PAST EVENTS , BUT A SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION ...presenting a big list of happy moments to her/him, as an argument of why the two of you should carry on the relation forward, won't help ....firstly, if you are in the position where you have to point all those things out for her/him , it means she/he found no reason to do this on his/her own initiative...secondly, doing this will flag you as way to needy and insecure as you are pointing to things in the past, and not to a bright future he/she might want to share with you

    Cheers mates ;)

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    LMAO!!! I know it's not funny but I just read the script of the last few months of my life!! Dead bang baby when the txt comes and just ignore it Bang your on your way back.... The weight is lifted and your movin on!!:lovely_jubly:

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    While I realize you stated that this post was for men only, I still feel your points leave room for discussion.

    I think it’s problematic to draw such stark binaries between men and women, as it can leave room open for stereotyping and overall miscommunication and misunderstanding. Also, it leaves out the possibility that people are perhaps much more complex than this golden rule here that men deal in logic and women deal in emotions. Regardless of how many statistics you read in psychological, sociological, anthropological studies, it’s dangerous to think of people in such black and white terms. If you define people only in the ways that they are different, you begin to miss the ways in which they are most alike.

    Your scenarios that you list, the questions you have that are asked when a man is the victim of a breakup – “What have I done wrong?” “What would it take to repair this?” – are questions that women ask themselves at the end of a relationship as well. These are not necessarily questions that arise solely from “logic” – they can double as emotional responses as well.

    When you say, “because this is the way the female brain is wired, the attraction part comes from EMOTION,” I have to say that I don’t agree. Attraction is a neurological and hormonal response that comes from the basic human need for sex. “Love,” while it’s much more complex than the way I’m going to define it, is the emotional response to that basic human need – it is not a “choice” reserved only for women – these responses work both ways.

    I agree with your statement: “Always judge a woman by her actions, not her words.” However, this statement goes both ways as well. I don’t quite agree that it’s a mistake to apply logic to a woman’s actions. This can be problematic in that it again traffics in stereotypes dating back to the Middle Ages when women were “medically” hysterical and expected to be irrational due to the make-up of their bodies (the four “humors,” etc.). Women will certainly do this from time to time – but so do men. These binaries are difficult to uphold in theory because, in practice, they are constantly blurring into one another. Attempting to uphold gender binaries leaves little room for mutual respect, understanding, and most importantly, effective communication between two people in a romantic relationship.

    This “Time-Space Excuse,” again, is not reserved for women, as it’s been given to me by men before. Men are often bitter that women seem to do this to them often, and that makes it easy to shove them all into this “purely emotional, irrational” category. But women also get bitter that men do the same thing. Often, women (and men) who habitually give the “time-space excuse” without much introspective thought into WHY they’re doing it generally have problems with instability, intimacy, and commitment. It’s true that all of these can be put under the umbrella term “Emotional problems;” however, it’s important not to assume that this is not how all women work. In fact, it’s not how even a large percentage of women work.

    I am sorry if a woman has done this to you, as I know that it’s painful. And you’re absolutely right that NC is the best way to go in dealing with this. However, creating such polar-opposite distinctions between men and women can easily reinforce male-female stereotypes, and can make it easy for men not to respect women, and for women not to respect men.

    Again, I realize I’m a woman reading a post reserved for men, but I felt it was worth some discussion.

    Cheers
    "Are tangerines really just oranges that didn't want it enough?" - Random Greeting Card

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    Have to agree with you Kelley~

    I myself do not want to be "stereotyped"....I believe we have all been in this situation a time or two...and we are here to help one another.

    xxSPHYNXxx



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    Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.

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    THE "TIME-SPACE" EXCUSE

    This smoke screen that every woman used at least one time on some guy , must not be believed , friends ...i've seen it many times before , and i've had many confirmations from women who used it that there was ALWAYS a third party involved.
    Slick...every guy who ever broke up with me said...'he needed time/space' then broke it off. Including my latest ex. We are still great friends - but he was the one who said it. i gave him time an space and he still ended it. This something that men do as much as women. I

    I am 39 so I have had a quite a few relationships (short term and long term) and believe me when I say there really isn't ANYTHING that men do that women don't. We all do this stuff. Yes women tend to be more emotional, that is to do with biology but i know MANY men that are MORE emotional that I am.

    Being a long term user of the Love Logic and other help forums you really do learn to see that either sex does the same crap. There are some differences - yes but we don't tend to stereotype people so much here. Men cheat, women cheat, men lie, women lie, men want time out, women want time out.

    One thing I NEVER do...even after 3 failed long term relationships some shorter ones is put men in the 'all men' category. I hate it when females I know say, 'All men are *******s. how you do keep doing it Michelle?' I CANNOT think that way. My best friend of 28 years is a man. Many of my closest friends are men (inc 2 exes) and I will not judge one sex as a whole. The men/women that call all men/women *******s end up with no platonic friendships and alone.
    True love cannot be found where it truly does not exist,
    Nor can it be hidden where it truly does.

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    While I think their are gender differences I do have to agree with others here on how this could apply to both genders. Yes, women tend to be more emotional but not all the time and we certainly use logic as well and men are not simply logical they have emotions too. I've even seen and been surprised at how much a lot of the men on here have expressed emotions that I was surprised men express them just as much as women.

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    Bumping it for the new guys ...also i'm updating this whenever i have the time..

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    Dude, I think we got someone looking for a reaction here !

    Hey ive been hurt too, most of us have, this a help forum though !

    Im pretty sure the women here will be thinking youre a word which is pretty close to your username !!!

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    Darryl~

    Every situation is different, we cannot be "clumped" into or stereotyped....as I too have stated, we are all here to help one another.

    Hugs

    xxSPHYNXxx



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    HUGS!

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    Mmm....so tell me, Darryl , what kind of reaction would that be ? Flowers, hugs or chocolates ? i don't care for what people think about my advices, i've earned my credentials a long time ago ...if it helps someone -good, if it's only a bashing thread - i'm cool again , i know there is that one lonely sad guy outhere reading this and dodging some bullets in his future.

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    Default Respectful disagreement

    I respect your right to have the opinions you have expressed Slick and may even understand where you are coming from.

    On reflection and reading your post thoroughly a few times, there are a number of issues I could address with you. There are questions that I might ask, that if you were open to them, may lead you to thinking about who you are, your experiences and why you wrote the post using the language or in the particular fashion that you did.


    However I find it suffice to say many of our very seasoned members have already replied and stated that your post is perhaps rather rigid. I would support their conclusions with the addition of the point that, it is therapeutic to "write out" intense responses/reactions to situations and/or keep a journal to help you and IMHO this post was exactly that type of post.

    I hope that your appreciation of life and people becomes more...multi-faceted... as Aristotle said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." Buddha

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    Hello Tiger

    i'm glad you took the time to read this thread and give it a shot with your opinion...i apreciate this, but i would have liked a "reply" to the thread, and not to my "way of beeing"..leave it that way , and it doesn't really matter, as the difference between the two of us is that you tell people "what they want to hear" and i "tell people what they need to hear" ...i don't mind getting personal because in the end, it's not about myself , or you, , it's about helping people

    Now Darryl my friend, i wasn't reading carrefuly your reply (can't blame me ) and slipped the "nick name" line ...yes man, i might be sick, totally agree with you there...as in "sick of people larger than life", you know, the ones that feel this urge to get a lot of "Thank You"s here on the forum, looking for a reaction to feel good about themselvs...

    "I tried everything and I mean EVERYTHING to get her to give me another chance.
    I begged, cried, called, texted, emailed, probably even harrassed and stalked to an extent ! I bought her expensive gifts, none of this worked
    ." -those were your words man , guess you nailed a few also , but admitting them would have made you a lesser man , while bashing this thread made you a god...if doing that made you a better man in some way, knock yourself out buddy and have fun doing it untill you get bored, but i can't see how that helps anyone else but yourself ;)

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    Default For Slick

    Hi,

    Good to hear from you.

    I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear; I was replying to the thread in the sense that the more seasoned members had said most of what I would have said, so I didn't feel the need to repeat. I thought I outlined that at this point:

    "I find it suffice to say many of our very seasoned members have already replied and stated that your post is perhaps rather rigid. I would support their conclusions..."


    I am afraid I must respectfully disagree with your opinion that I tell people what they want to hear, since I often don't tell anyone anything! However I respect your opinion to believe that as you may.

    As many people have noted, I have a tendancy to ask questions and try to establish what it is people are REALLY feeling/thinking (not the surface emotional response) and WHY. I won't always get to the root of the problem and I'm not always right, but I certainly agree with you that this forum is about helping people and that's what I try to do in my own way.


    As I have mentioned on other posts when people give advice it is often not impartial, it is coloured by THEIR life experiences good or bad. My understanding of your post, please feel free to correct me, from your language and from your references to your own personal experience, tells me that your post is very coloured by your experiences. There is nothing wrong with that and you are perfectly entitled to give your view as strongly worded or as personally as you like.

    However a more balanced and analytical view may also be useful and I try to provide that, uncoloured by my own perspective or experiences. I may not always be successful but I try.

    I respectfully disagree with your comments about "thank you" system on this forum. Each person may be as generous or not with their thank you's, I tend to offer my thanks, to those I feel have offered outstanding advice, or particularly sound advice with impartiality, but that's just me. Some people may only offer one line answers with very little thought put in and just a fluffy hug some may only offer their own biased view and may not be able to understand or appreciate others. But this is a community and we all try to respect the opinion of others, whether or not we agree. The ratings, number of posts and thank you's are just ways of supporting each other and not a status symbol.

    I would ask that you please show that respect to everyone. Particularly in this case Darryl, his comment was meant in a joking fashion and understanding that is integral to understanding this forum, he was not intending to be offensive and in my view he was not.

    I'm sorry if his comment hurt your feelings, however IMHO he has opened his emotional wounds on this forum, not only helping others, but asking for help, admitting his issues and trying to address them. IME men who are like Darryl are few and far between and I have the utmost respect for his emotional courage and mental tenacity. If I understand correctly (Darryl please correct me if I'm wrong) his intentions were not to "bash" your thread; but to jokingly show you that you are giving only one facet of a multi-faceted world, which relationships are.


    No "bashing" of threads is accepted here, honesty is appreciated, bluntness even accepted, but no bashing.

    We appreciate your input, we appreciate everyones input, the variety of answers, gives people choices to think about. I ask that you please be open to the constructive criticism and opinions of others as we are to yours.

    Thank you.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." Buddha

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    This thread is officially closed.


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